Buying your way to US citizenship

@Uraniumfish I have often wondered about this for here in Asia , apartments in London are considered a great investment but not in NYC. Real estate adverts are always show casing new builds in London but never do you see anything in NYC advertised. The reason for this I think that the US is still wary of foreign investors. There are strict guidelines one has to adhere too if one wants to do any business in the US even if it involves only listing your company on the NYSE. The accounting norms have to conform and much more. Earlier people would use visa loopholes to retire in places like Florida but now its getting tougher for even if you get a green card this way, you often have to make trips to the US every 6 months until you qualify for citizenship and that can take about 5 years. All of us know that enormous wealth is being generated in India and China but people from those countries find it difficult to invest in the US be it through property or buying a business . There are restrictions on the export of capital in those countries and if they want access to finance in the US they find it almost impossible. Most of the people I have met here have invested in property in places like Singapore and Hong Kong, cities which people here perceive as first world rather than London or New York.

In fact Uraniumfish I have spent the last half an hour reading all the various comments posted under this article as many of them mention US expatriates- a genre to which my husband and I now belong. I was shocked to read how some US citizens who live abroad are now renouncing their citizenship because of tax reasons. The US global tax regime definitely puts us at a distinct disadvantage here in Asia for fellow expats from UK, Australia and even India are not subject to these rules and can really rake in the big bucks but we as the end of the year draws near are well aware of our substantial tax liabilities. But to renounce citizenship over this is a bit extreme according to me unless you have made up your mind to live away forever and do without the benefits of holding a US passport.

@Uptowngirl: You would be surprised what people would do just to escape Uncle Sam. When you have been audited by one of their gorillas, I think you will begin to hate them to.

@Everyone Just read this excellent article by Fareed Zakaria on steps America needs to take to restore the American Dream.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2026776,00.html

@uptowngirl I could never, never renounce my US citizenship, especially for tax purposes. I have been in parts of the world where one flash of my US passport was enough to get me past the mobs of people waiting to apply for visas outside the US embassy - and was very grateful indeed for that passport. For better or worse, US citizenship still means a lot in this world.

@uptowngirl I did some reading recently about taxes on expats, because I was trying to figure out how to claim foreign income/if I had to... It does seem unfair that you have to donate so much money to a country you're not even enjoying at the moment. But I agree that renouncing citizenship is extreme, and in my case, unthinkable.

@Uraniumfish believe me I know what you mean. I have to get visas for nearly every country I want to visit and I think US citizens have no idea how painful that process can be. I remember a couple of years ago I had to go to Spain for a cousins wedding and I had to supply a whole host of documents to the Spanish consulate in Manhattan including tax papers and the like. That is way confidential information which could be used for anything if it falls in the wrong hands. Anyway I had enough proof that I was a legal permanent resident who was well settled in NYC , its not as if I was looking to go and live illegally in Spain.

@BroadwayBK But I can't imagine being liable for taxes in a country in which you don't live? When I was in Germany I paid taxes in Germany, and since I didn't earn anything int he US didn't pay any taxes there. Seemed simple enough.

@Uraniumfish It should be that simple, but it isn't. At least not for residents of the US. Other, more reasonable countries, yes. But not us: "Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside." http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97324,00.html

However, there's also a law that you can't be held liable for income taxes in two different countries for the same income. I don't know where I got that, but I believe it is just as true. Not an expert here, but I would say you're required to pay income tax in the US fro income earned abroad only IF you are not liable for it anywhere else.

@Uraniumfish NeverSleeps is absolutely right, the US does have tax treaties with many countries to avoid double taxation but as a US resident/ citizen you have to pay global taxes and it can seriously affect your earning potential as an expat.

OMG I followed NeverSleep's IRS link and actually found a section which deals expatriation - taxes for American citizens and PR's who end their citizenship/ residency for tax reasons. So obviously its way more common than we thought.Tried to read it but my eyes glazed over after a few lines!

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00.html#_Expatriation_after_June_16,%202008

@Uraniumfish Yeah - you gotta pay US taxes no matter what. Or renounce your citizenship apparently. Imagine my surprise when I learned that recently..

@uptowngirl I can't blame anyone for not wanting to pay taxes in a country they don't live in or plan on returning to, so I'm not that surprised that so many people would be willing to renounce the US.

I'm surprised to find out about the US global taxation, but I've only been an expat in countries with which the US had treaties, so never paid twice or had to.

Ha...but didn't you just say that you paid German taxes at one point? You totally paid the wrong country. Don't ever reveal your identity!

@BroadwayBk have been riveted to Huffington Post reading all the blogs about the mid-term elections and so many Americans are talking of leaving the country to go and retire abroad. I presume that they will in time go on to renounce the country too.

Ugh, taxation situations are so confusing - especially for freelancers who can't just have it deducted from our paychecks!

@ajadedidealist I totally empathize!

@Uraniumfish; If you live in another country and pay taxes there, when it comes time to pay your U.S. taxes, you can actually deduct taxes paid in other jurisdictions, even if those places are overseas.

@ajadedidealist I guess that's why they have accountants and lawyers who specialize in taxes. Seems like a business I should've gotten into - it's got to be a moneymaker, seeing as how we are all so clueless about doing something we are required to do annually.

@BroadwayBK Thanks for the concern, but I think I'm okay on this point and paid the right country. The amounts were such that I was then not liable for taxes in the US. I did look into it at the time and followed all the rules as far as i knew.

So I'm no refugee just yet.

@Uraniumfish I was totally joking - didn't mean to insult your tax paying skills in any way.

@NeverSleeps I always get the heebee jeebees around tax season why is the US tax code so cumbersome? I have a friend who is a CPA and has his own tax advice and preparation service in Manhattan. He does earn big bucks but works really long hours especially during tax season.

@BroadwayBK Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so uptight about your joke! At the time it was such a serious issue and a source of worry, that I guess it carries over even into joking about it now!

@uptowngirl US tax code cumbersome? Hah! You have never tried paying taxes in Germany, apparently.

@Uptowngirl: Yeah, if my freelance writing work does not pick up, I may have to advertise my accounting and tax services like I did three years ago. I actually made $1500 a week, filling out tax returns. I will need to attend a tax class to get up to date with the new tax changes so I'll be prepared.

@Uraniumfish I should correct that I find all tax code cumbersome!!my eyes just seem to glaze over when I read through tax stuff. In India and in the US as well I used to rely on the services of my accountant to make sure I was ok.

@hhusted I say go for it , who doesn't need extra income nowadays? with my shopping tendencies I always seem to be out of pocket.. I just bought an antique map for my husband as an early anniversary-Christmas present and then a friend in Mumbai asked for Fit Flops that set me back another $75. Its that dangerous time of the year already.

$1500 a week? That's fantastic. What a gorgeous present, @uraniumfish! Antique maps are fantastic.

@uptowngirl I was just contemplating how much money I need to make to stay out of the red in this dangerous time of the year!

@hhusted I knew the tax service biz had to be a racket! I should invest in some new skills, obviously.

@NeverSleeps you're telling me and I don't even seem to have the will to work.. I have been goofing off big time.. I think I am going to be in big trouble soon.

@NeverSleeps: Yes, when I advertise, I am so swamped for work that I can't keep up. With my current living arrangements, my girlfriend does not like me using her apartment for strangers, so I will probably have to meet them at their place or maybe at a Starbucks.

@Uptowngirl: Thanks for the vote of confidence. I think I will look into signing up for an updated tax class so I will know the codes.

@uptowngirl Tell me about it. I blame the end of Daylight Savings. It's such a drag - I went shopping in the city around 4pm the other day and it was already dusk!

@NeverSleeps oooh that's one thing I do not miss about NYC, the bone chilling winter, but this year seems to be better??

@Uptowngirl: Don't count on it being mild too long. A scientist friend of mine told me that a top meteorologist stated NYC is in for a rather frigid winter with plenty of snow. Not a pleasant thought.

@hhusted there is a similar prediction for Hong Kong though currently the weather is fine, in the 70s ..Hong Kong doesnt get snow but the cold is damp and miserable and the homes are not heated here so I have had to run out and buy small, portable,electric heaters for the months of December -January.

Weather's been weirdly warm for November. Somebody please explain to me ho wthe Republicans came to deny reality by not "believing" in global warming?

@Uraniumfish The GOP believes in only the issues that it wants to believe in all else be dammed.

It's so incredible to me that an issue related to science has become politicized to this extent. I mean, everyone pretty much agrees that we want to try and keep our drinking water clean, there's no "believeing" in whether clean water is good for you or not. How did we come to "believe" or "not believe" that global warming is possible along party lines?

@Uraniumfish Global warming doesn't necessarily mean that every season will be warmer than the last. It may mean colder winters. Which is why it was so absurd for global warming deniers to point to last year's crazy winter storms and say, "See! No warming because it's not warm!" Apparently not much can be learned about global warming from just one season, no matter how strange the season: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=earthtalks-global-warming-harsher-winter (I think someone - perhaps it was I - may have posted this article last winter, pretty sure I've read it before, my bad if it's already been posted).

Also thought you ladies might enjoy this guy: http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2010/11/19/131455671/global-warming-s-real-ex-gop-lawmaker-to-his-party

Guess I'm having a devil's advocate kind of a day! :)

@BroadwayBK Good article. The reason I've been ranting about this is that I read an article a couple of days ago about how pretty much the Republicans in congress don't "believe" in global warming along straight party lines. Which just has to make you a little batty - that scientific fact suddenly is a subject of political debate in Congress? Geez. How much more disillusioned can I be about politics in the US?

Here's something to add to the global warming debate which should scare the bejeezus out of us all:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101122/ap_on_re_eu/eu_climate_siberian_meltdown

At least there's snow in winter - sometimes! NYC may be insanely cold, but I think that the glorious snow and Christmas displays make it my favorite season!

@BroadwayBK thanks for all the articles that you posted, I do believe global warming exists why yesterday my parents were telling me that it was pouring away in Mumbai, Very unusual for end of November for the South West monsoon usually departs by early October. Many parts of South Asia have been experiencing freak rain which has wrecked havoc on seasonal crops etc. I really do believe global warming and climate change is to blame.

Isn't this year one of those El Niño years?

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2009/20090709_elnino.html

That thing causes all kinds of freakish weather.

@BroadwayBK Saw a report on CNN last night, yes indeed 2010 is one of those El Niño years.

@Everybody: Let's not start with that global warming crap again. Maybe you remember my feelings and take on it. Let's just say that the weather is going to get worse this year because the sun is more active than it was last year or in years past. By the way, the sun has a major influence as to what happens, weatherize, on this planet.

@uptowngirl I think La Niña is about to start - which is why we're set for a milder winter than last year. Whoo!

@ BroadwayBK thank god for small mercies..though London and the rest of Europe have already been blanketed by a snowstorm and its only the end of November.

@uptowngirl Jeez! I thought it didn't really snow in London...? That is really crazy. I was considering a holiday trip to Ireland; perhaps I should reconsider.

@NeverSleeps London for the longest time seemed to be snow free but it all changed last year I think when a huge snow fall dumped a ton of snow in London and the entire city came to a stand still for a few days. Don't think they are used so much snow hence unlike NYC it doesn't get cleared as fast.
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1876338_1839627,00.html

It *didn't* really snow in London, @Neversleeps! Everyone was complaining about an inch or two - that what was so ridiculous!

I think any snow fall where there normally isn't any is cause for complaint! I can't imagine what would happen if it started snowing anywhere in my home state of FL - the entire region might sink or something.

I learned that the city of New York is pretty proficient at dealing with snowfall when I drove through a blizzard in DC last year - that city completely shut down after a few feet of snow, something that is unlikely to happen to us.

@BroadwayBK: I remember one year that Florida had a cold snap and a snowstorm. Unheard of for Florida.

Um... a snowstorm??

Cold snap in Florida I have heard of ..the fruit got frozen but I dont think they had a snowstorm. Earlier this year wasnt it?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122275446

Have you guys heard about the embarrassing situation at Heathrow Airport? 5 inches of snow and they're completely turning into buffoons! Ridiculous!

@ajadedidealist I have been following the Heathrow and Gatwick snow out all week..along with the closures of Frankfurt, Paris, Berlin and Brussels airports..Europe seems paralyzed. I know JFK shuts down in really bad blizzards but somehow you dont hear stories of Toronto's Pearson airport shutting down or Moscow's Sheremetyvo ever shutting down do you? and they must routinely be having ice storms and the like. Maybe they are better equipped to deal with them?

@Uptowngirl and @Broadwaybk: Here is a link that list all the occasions of where snow occurred in Florida: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_snow_events_in_Florida.

I have lived in places that don't usually get snow. Like El Paso, TX. It doesn't stick but it is interesting to see. In Wyoming, I've seen it snow in July. I'm not in NY this Christmas. I am in Colorado for the holidays. Taking a great time off of school. I have seen the news though about the weather over there. One man they interviewed said he had never seen snow in real life, only in textbooks. The snow over here in crazy. We've been snowed in a few times. As for the originality of this post, I do have an article that I've written, it started out as a paper for my gov't class but I figured that since the semester is over, I'll post it. I'll be back on to get the addy for you guys. Hope everyone is doing great and having a safe and fun holiday week.

@ajadedidealist I saw that! Pathetic.

@hhusted If you read your own list, you'll notice that no actual snowstorms are listed. I'd hardly call a half inch of snow a snowstorm. The snow does seem to be falling much more in recent years, however.

@uptowngirl Yes, the cold snaps have become more frequent in FL, much to the displeasure of strawberry farmers.

I hear Europe is getting hammered with snow just now. Funny that NYC winter so far has been so merciful.

I think you guys may have spoken too soon.

@NeverSleeps You bet

How inconvenient that the blizzard hit right when a lot of people would be flying back into the city after the holiday!

I thought of our global warming talk when I read this over the weekend: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/26/opinion/26cohen.html?_r=1&ref=opinion

brrrrrr that's all I can say!

@BroadwayBK: Even an inch of snow in Florida is a snowstorm, considering they hardly get it.

@hhusted More like a snowfall. Huge difference.

@BroadwayBK: If it came down hard and heavy for a while and accumulated even an inch or so it can be considered a snowstorm, at least this is what a weatherman once said. I'm only stating what he said.

@hhusted Whatever. There are just so many snowstorms in Florida, you and the weatherman are so right! Tundra all the time! But there's no such thing as global warming!

@BroadwayBK: That's right. No such thing as global warming, as scientists are now finding out.

@hhusted have you been following the devastating floods in Australia and other parts of Asia? what's the reason for these weather abnormalities then?

Wait, are we being sarcastic about the lack of global warming or not? I can't tell tone on the internet!

@ajadeidealist Um, I think some people are sarcastic and some people are super-earnest, if I read my tones correctly.

For the record: I'm happy to let scientists better qualified than me puzzle out whether there is global warming and to what extent, but I find it extremely creepy that Republicans have taken the issue of whether one "believes" in global warming as a policy point. That can't lead to anything good, certainly not to the truth.

@Uraniumfish I tend to believe there is global warming how else can you have an explanation for all this crazy weather all over the world? I havent done any in depth analysis into it though.. hardly think I am qualified to do so anyway.

@Uraniumfish Good tone reading.

@ajadedidealist I am a believer.

@Uptowngirl: Don't start your beliefs about global warming again. I believe we clarified that before hand when I told you the abnormal weather conditions were the direct result of space conditions and the sun. But, if I can recall correctly, you didn't want to believe that. I was told the best way around this subject is not to discuss it, despite the overwhelming proof against global warming.

When the earth's magnetic field is shifted, this causes the jet stream currents to also shift. This causes the winds to change direction and location. What happens then is that area that would see a certain type of weather would start seeing unusual weather. There were solar flares and a solar storm recently, along with a solar and lunar eclipse. All these conditions cause unusual and abnormal weather conditions on the planet. You don't have to take my word for it. I can supply many places on the Internet where you can read it yourself - www.earthchangesmedia.com is one of them.

@hhusted well you have your beliefs and I have mine anyway have one more question for you -why have these drastic climate changes only occurred in recent years? why didnt they take place in the past? or is it that they didnt attract so much media attention?

@Uptowngirl: The media only broadcasts what they want and when they want it. They were told not to say much without fear of lawsuits and reprisals from the scientific community. So they kept it under raps.

As we have established previously, the internet is an excellent place to find the truth and only the truth. I believe it is also an excellent place to receive "credentials" rather than go to an actual school.

@Uraniumfish: I guess you are being sarcastic here. The Internet is not foolproof. What is there is based on what is written and uploaded. Garbage in-garbage out. This is why when something is written and found online, the person reading it should do a thorough investigation, before determining if it is valid or not.

@Uraniumfish Naturally.

I have to say that even online degree programs from accredited universities are strange to me - why wouldn't you want the benefits of being around student peers and participating in classroom activity? Unless you're in prison....

@BroadwayBK I agree. The bulk of education is not actually the material that you read, but the questions you ask of your teachers and your peers, on the road to real understanding. I'm pretty skeptical of online courses myself. At least, I don't see them as anything more than the first step of actually learning something.

@uraniumfish, BroadwayBK - I was homeschooled for a good deal of junior high school, and started courses through Johns Hopkins CTY program and Stanford EPGY program. I must say that I found them extraordinarily helpful, and I definitely was well-prepared academically for when I made the transition to an academically demanding boarding school. (That said, I was one awkward 14-year-old - so, pluses and minuses, I suppose!)

@Uraniumfish: Every college and university has classes online now. It is the wave of the future. There are people who can't travel, disabled, or just don't like classrooms. So online classes give them a chance for learning. I got one of my degrees online and loved it.

@Uptowngirl: Read this article I wrote on Global Warming while in college. I think you will find it interesting and stimulating. http://articles.creatingwords.com/general/global-warming-real-or-imagined.html

@ajdedidealist That's interesting. You were either a highly motivated kid or your parents were really looking out for you, because there is no way I would have been mature enough during middle school to work my way through homeschool curricula on my own.

@Uraniumfish I'm in complete agreement. And as ajadedidealist points out, online schooling hinders the social development process. Without ever having experienced a social academic environment, I might be a different version of myself....

@hhusted thanks interesting point of view.. as for online courses youre right they seem to be the way in the future especially for folks who are already working and want to get additional qualifications without wasting time being in 'school'.

@BroadwayBK: I have to disagree when it comes to learning online. I am an example that it works. I graduated with a B.A. in English and I did it online. I loved studying online. Why be in a classroom. I sent my questions to the instructor and got my reply the same day. So what's the problem.

I don't think a classroom or school environment can be replaced. You learn so much more from school than information from books. That's where you learn how to interact with people, communicate and problem solve. Plus, some of my best memories are from school. You miss out on all of that when you're isolated from other students. Not to mention, that when you all learn together, you're exposed to other points of view on the same topic which can be altering in a good way.

@JenMac I think for people who are already in the work world and are socialized to a certain extent an online course presents the best way to get an additional qualification without much 'loss of time' on campus.

@uptowngirl: totally agree in the adult aspect. But, for kids, I'm just not a fan of home schooling. I think it's just asking for your kid to be one of those creepy spelling bee kids.

@Everyone speaking of schooling and parenting have any of you been following the whole Amy Chua debate- Chinese Mothers are superior? Its generated a whole bunch of controversy in the US
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html#articleTabs%3Darticle

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/culture/2011-01/26/c_13707773.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/judith-simon-prager-phd/amy-chua-tiger-mother-parenting_b_813480.html

Here's the NY times take on the issue.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/18/opinion/18brooks.html

@JenMac: I don't need a classroom to learn. And i don't need to mix with other students to learn either. I rather learn from the professor, because students don't know anything. They are there to learn to. In my four years of college, not one time did I step in a classroom. I learned everything online. I chatted with the professor and also chatted with the students at times. I also saw their pictures. I liked it that way. When I was traveling to classes, I hated the commute. The traffic jams, the noise, all my goodness. I couldn't stand it.

No thanks. Give me an online classroom any day of the week and I'll be happy.

@Jenmac: My publisher home schools her kids all the time. And the kids love it. They purchased a computer that teaches every subject. The kids take tests and send the results to the school, so they have a record of them. It works great for the family.

@uptowngirl This is the article I saw on the topic: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/fashion/16Cultural.html

@JenMac I agree; I've never met a kid who was homeschooled through high school who was able to easily fit in with his/her peers. Kids need socialization, and those kids who enjoy homeschooling are likely the introverted sort who would most benefit from being around people. I was a really shy kid and I hate to imagine how I would have turned out if I hadn't been forced out of my comfort zone on a regular basis.

@hhusted: I'm was explicitly not referring to textbook learning. While a child may garner enough education, technically, through online / home schooling, I don't believe that he / she learns necessary socialization skills that kids whom attend real school do. And, the students don't know anything? Look at Mark Zuckerberg's story? He broke into Harvard's computer system and couldn't even get the entire panel of Harvard Professors to understand the gaping holes which enabled him to do it.

JenMac: When I spoke about the kids not knowing anything, I was referring to the same subject I was studying. In other words, every student in the classroom is there to learn the subject for the first time. So why depend on them for help. I don't mind getting tutored from another student, if he already went through the class and knows the subject well.

I understand your reasoning when it comes to socialization, however, just how important is it for kids to socialize. I mean if they don't, they are kept from bullies, bad teachers, drugs, alcohol, and other bad influences that are prevalent in schools today.

No, if I had kids, I would educate them at home. This way not only would they get a good education, but they would be protected from the badness of this world. Eventually, I would expose them to the badness, but I would do it gradually.

It's not true that all students in all classrooms are there to learn for the very first time, especially not in a college setting. Grad students benefit greatly from each other's perspectives, especially when they are studying any sort of art form. The writing program I was in as an undergrad completely centered on the workshop, which of course has its downsides, but overall worked quite well. I believe the workshop is now a major part of most writing programs.

@BroadwayBK I think workshops and seminars should be a major part of all education, even technical education. I have worked with engineers to whom it never before occurred that working collaboratively might help them solve a complicated problem.

I've learned a lot of different perspectives from fellow classmates -- I think your peers have a lot to offer. And, I don't know that home schooling is going to keep a kid away from drugs and alcohol if they want to do drugs and alcohol . . .unless they're kept in a basement away from everyone. In which case, they'll probably start drinking as soon as they're older.
And, bullies never go away. There will always be bullies. I know plenty now and I'm an adult.

I managed not to get tempted by drugs or alcohol and went to a huge public school. On the other hand, there were two kids on my block being home schooled and they were smoking at 13 and always up to no good. The reason they were home schooled? They were both fat and had gotten teased at school. Tough deal for them, but I hardly think being isolated helped them all that much as far as life skills.

@Uraniumfish What a disservice those parents did to those kids. Rather than home schooling they should have encouraged them to lose weight and face the world.

People go crazy trying to protect their kids from the world, but keeping them from the world will only hurt them in the end. You really have to raise kids to make their own decisions, and in that respect what better practice is there for the real world than playground antics?

Yeah... it's pretty undisputed that socialization is very important for kids. We are social creatures - some more than others.

I also went to your average public school and I was never interested in drugs/alcohol even though the opportunity was there.

@Everybody: You people can come up with every argument in the book against homeschooling and learning online, but the facts are there that prove more people are going online than in a classroom. This is a new age people. Classroom settings are still around, but are slowly changing. I believe by the year 2015, many children will be taught at home and online. See if this happens. I'm not saying all schools will do this, but there will be a large amount that will.

But there are skills that can't be taught through home-schooling (I say this as a major advocate of homeschooling - it was great for me at the time!) Not just social skills, but the kind of intense debate and argument that happens in a tutorial/class setting. At Oxford, I spend an hour a week one-on-one with a professor going over my essay and discussing and at times debating the topic! Even if I'd gotten the reading lists on my own, and done all the reading on my own (which actually happens - my tutorial is my only contact time), it's the tutorial that's most invaluable!

@ajadedidealist Well put.

@ajadedidealist I second that

@Ajadedidealist: You can't convince me that a classroom is better. I had discussions with my professor, one-on-one online and by phone. I told you, I graduated college online. I never set foot in a classroom and I loved it. You are just making excuses against homeschooling. Truth be told, I have a friend who homeschools her children and does just fine.

When I was taking my classes online, I would upload my homework in Word to the classroom board, my professor would download and read it. If I wanted to talk about it, I would send him an email and let him know of my request. He would contact me by email and let me know his schedule. Worked out great for me.

hhusted: you are making excuses for the inferiority of a school setting. You want us to look at the facts? The college I went to (UCLA) received 61,498 freshman applications for the 2011-2012 school year. That is ONE school. And, that is a fact. Everything that you have given on the topic, thus far, is an opinion. I'm pretty sure home schooling isn't taking over any time soon. Nor should it.

@JenMac: I guess you haven't read the facts about homeschooling. Hey, you know what, as someone told me recently, you are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. The only thing I wish to say about this subject, and I will end it, is I know what I'm saying is not just an opinion but fact.

By the way, there is one thing you failed to look at. UCLA did receive 61,498 freshman applications, however, if you include the number of them that enrolled online, that number is not 61,498, it was actually closer to 90,000 students.

Also, to add: I think I'm going to trust JenMac's degree from UCLA over any "degree" you think you have from an online learning course, hhusted. Sorry.

hhusted: You cannot get a Bachelor's degree from UCLA online! I'm sorry. But, you just can't. And, thank you, Uraniumfish.

@hhusted You should really stop making things up to prove your point. It's not only annoying, it's unethical. We're not the only people who read these forums as they are highly Google-able and presenting untruths as fact could possibly be harmful to people not unlike yourself who simply choose to believe whatever backs up that which they've already decided is true.

@NeverSleeps Thank you!

@neversleeps: here here!

@NeverSleeps Ouch.

@everyone I hate when the discourse deteriorates into, well, this.

So, um, who won the Superbowl?

Dunno but, um, I can't wait to check out AdAge and all the new commercials via YouTube!!!!!

@BroadwayBK believe the Groupon advert created quite a stir

@uptowngirl In China? Have to admit I didn't really think much of it when I saw it, but I can see why people would be put off by it.

I missed all of the superbowl commercials this year because I was in an excessively loud place and I'm so bummed! I cried during the Google one last year. They're always so good!

@JenMac http://adage.com/superbowl/article?article_id=148677

@BroadwayBk any reference to Tibet causes a stir in China.

@broadway: Thanks!!

JenMac and NeverSleeps: Whatever. I know what I know to be the truth. I did research it. And it isn't my opinion.

As for UCLA, you can get a degree online. I know this as fact. Check out this website and see it for yourself: http://msengrol.seas.ucla.edu/.

At this stage, you people can say whatever you want. Online education works. It is here and it will grow. I teach a number of courses online so I should know. As for my degree, Uraniumfish, don't ever knock my degree as not being legit. It is from a reputable school and has been recognized by every employer and client I worked with since getting it.

@Everybody: Just in case anyone is interested, Green Bay Packers won the Superbowl over the Pittsburgh Steelers.

@hhusted You said there were nearly 30,000 people enrolled in online degree programs at UCLA. You're telling me there are 30,000 people enrolled in this one engineering grad school program which is only for people who for some reason can't attend classes on campus?

No one is saying online education doesn't work to some degree; we're just saying there are high benefits of attending on-site classes. I don't mean to insult you, but you insult all of us (constantly) when you pull facts out of thin air or make up witnesses to explain the opinions you hold as truths.

@NeverSleeps: You insult me when you claim I'm a liar. I never pull facts out of the air. I relay what I am told from others who are in the position of expertise on the subject. I never make up witnesses. At least not on purpose. Sometimes I joke around, but I never lie about what I do or say. And my opinions are based on truth not fiction.

@hhusted: But, you do pass off opinions as facts. You say things like "SF is much cheaper than NY," and you regard this as fact. That's not a fact. That's an opinion and an erroneous one at that. And, whether or not "online education works" is your opinion. It is not a fact.

@JenMac: You are dead wrong. NYC is the most expensive city in the world.

@hhusted What about your supposed buddy, the Londoner, who insisted that London was full of fog? When you admitted he didn't exist you validated doubt in the existence of the rest of your witnesses. And you just insisted that UCLA had 30,000 freshman applicants for their online program, but the only online program UCLA apparently has (from the link you provided) doesn't even accept freshman applicants - it's a grad school program!

I'm not calling you a liar; I'm just asking you to please be responsible with your statements/arguments.

Also, you'd better get back to thoroughly researching/questioning the experts when it comes to the world's most expensive city; I hear Tokyo is crazy expensive. http://images.businessweek.com/ss/10/06/0622_most_expensive_cities/1.htm

@NeverSleeps: Never question me or what I say. Understand. Plus, don't believe everything you read, except when it comes from me. Plus, i said UCLA had about 30,000 freshman applicants. I called the college and asked Admissions. They told me they had a lot of responses to their online programs. And yes, they have many more online programs. I just gave you one link, as I was in a hurry to sign off and work on another assignment. I get my facts from reliable sources and that is all I have to say about this subject.

@hhusted Whaaaaat? First of all, I have every right to question what anyone says, just like anyone has a right to question what I say. Anyone! It's not necessarily an insult to question what people say.

Second of all, from what I can tell of UCLA's online program, you can take online courses TOWARD a degree, but you can't get an ENTIRE degree online, unless, apparently, it is that one grad school program in engineering that you posted. Therefore there can be NO freshman applicants for an online bachelor's degree from UCLA, as you can't get one from UCLA. Unless UCLA is hiding a website for its online BA/BS students somewhere where only you can find it. In order to take an online class at UCLA you have to be admitted as a full time, on-site student.

Do you think UCLA is going to show you the links. That is only for current students. Don't be naive. As I said before, there have been millions of people who graduated from colleges and universities in the last 5 years with degrees they earned online. I have a friend, who lives in Wisconsin, who can vouch for this.

@Everybody, this arguing is going to continue. I don't give in. So for piece of mind, let's end this discussion now and let everyone believe what they think.

LMAO @hhusted OOOOH! UCLA doesn't have any links for their prospective online students, because they want students to apply BEFORE they give them any info on the higher education they are about to blow thousands of dollars on! How could I be so naive!!!!

@NeverSleeps I think you are right grad school degrees can be acquired online but I think its a combination of online courses and class attendance. The New School in NY offers many classes online for degree and certificate programs though you need massive amounts of dedication and discipline to do an entire course online. Even NYU's online courses are mainly for its school of continuing education and professional studies.
http://www.newschool.edu/online/about_studying_online.aspx?s=1

@hhusted: "please don't believe everything that you read except when it comes to me." That is one of the most insane statements I have ever heard.

And, UCLA only offers those links to current students? Weird, then how do you apply for the program? And, my old roommate is a current student . . . I'm sure you know where the rest of this sentence is going.

hhusted is right about one thing - that there is no point in delving further into yet another confabulation. It's clear to those of us who've been through the higher education mill what kind of a higher education you can get online.

To steer the topic in a bit of a new direction: my university required that all undergrads take an intro to speech class. One of my friends was so terrified of the prospect (though who isn't?) that he found a community college that would let him take it online and transfer the credit. He just had take video of himself giving a speech or two in front of an audience of his roommates.

(Of course, now he's an ESL teacher in Asia somewhere where he gets in front of a class full of people for a living.)

Ah, online, education.

@BroadwayBK great story

It's so bizarre, to me, what universities make you take to graduate. I had to take two corresponding Earth sciences. I ended up taking atmospheric sciences 3 and 4. I was getting degrees in English and Philosophy . . . like, why the hell did I need to take that?

@JenMac that really is quite odd! In India where I studied your courses are related to the major that you choose.

@BroadwayBK I had to look up "confabulation." Interesting word choice.

@JenMac I believe the idea is to make you a well-rounded citizen and good thinker. Not that you're ever going to need the specific details of those classes, but it gives you a general body of knowledge to take with you into the world. So later on when you encounter people who claim there is no global warming you can roll your eyes.

@BroadwayBK Love that story too. I really hated the music theory class I had to take but I'm glad I still can hear the difference between a classical and a baroque piece. There is still the chance that skill will get me out of trouble someday.

@uraniumfish: I understand the reasoning behind it; but, I never payed attention in my compulsory classes due to trying to get things done for my major. I don't remember one thing from those classes except that all the soccer players in them were very short.