New Yorker Article

wow.... wtf.

@JenMac Ditto here. This is one world I know almost nothing about, but having read the article, I'm kind of glad I know as little as possible...

@JenMac - Ok.. this completely changes anything I ever thoguht that 'bottle service' ever was.. I mean, in my world, I always thought it was simply a way for clubs to charge a fortune to get a decent table.. by forcing you to buy a bottle of alcohol if you wanted a table.. This article makes it seem like something... more...

Uh yeah. It's completely crazy. I know a lot of these girls and the article is pretty spot on. It's a really crazy life they live. I was a bottle waitress but never did any of that stuff so I was kind of an outsider. These girls make ridiculous money, get extravagant gifts and trips and never think about what is going to happy when they get too old to be able to do it anymore. It's pretty scary.

@JenMac wow! I had no idea this is what bottle service at NYC clubs is a front for!!!!

It's also pretty sad. I know a few girls who graduated from college and moved to such places as New York and Las Vegas...in order to perform bottle service. Granted, they'll probably pay back their student loans a lot faster than I can dream of, but what kind of a place are they going to be working at the age of 35?

@BroadwayBk so true.....has a kind of pathetic ring to it..

@uptowngirl Yeah...it seems pathetic to us but at the same time I can see how a young girl can find herself making all that money and being surrounded by a bunch of rich dudes and feeling good about it. The thing is that it doesn't seem to lead anywhere special.

Crazy, I was just about to post that article! It's such a seductive, yet tawdry world. Tempting when I think about the cost of my grad school tuition, and then far less tempting when I actually, you know, think...

I went to school in the city and can honestly say I never felt tempted to do any such thing, even when faced with my student loans...seriously, @BroadwayBK that kind of "career" really can't lead anywhere very special...

I suppose for plenty of girls, though, it's a way to pay off, say, grad school debt before embarking on an entirely UN-related career. If I were to be a bottle girl, I'd make loads of money, then retire early to work on the great Franco-Italo-American Novel. And, of course, my lurid bottling memoirs

I recently found out that a friend, a woman in her early 40's who is a novelist and now head of a non-profit, used to be a stripper! Actually, her first novel was about that experience, so I guess it's one of those facts generally known about her, but I never read her first novel so had no idea! All I can say is, "Wow." I just would have never expected that to be part of her past, knowing her now.

The girls don't really save their money, sadly. But, it is an awful lot of dough for only working 15 hours a week.

@JenMac All the more sad for them, then. Why else put themselves through the humiliation otherwise?

@JenMac and Uraniumfish maybe this is another result of the consumerist culture we live in.. the desire to have nice things is so intense that they would do anything at all to gain access to the goodies.. In Asia its extremely common for very young women to go out with old white men .. all for the money and the goodies they can offer them.. in Singapore my friends contemptuously term it the 'ang mo' syndromme.. ang mo i.e. white man with red hair ..I guess to describe the light hair..

@uptowngirl Funny, and I have a thing for red headed men...though historically, the ones I've liked haven't like me much in return. I guess they're all too busy dating those super-young Asian girls...?

@Uraniumfish Unless it leads to getting a rich dude to divorce his wife and marry you in the Hamptons?

@Uraniumfish I think that's true to many of the S.E.Asian countries.. a male friend once had a chat with a NY cab driver about this issue - white men gravitating towards Asian women..and the cabbie who was Russian said it was because Asian women were submissive and more likely to listen/please a white man than a white woman.. how cliched can you get???

Ugh, I have a guy friend who is creepily OBSESSED with Thai women, wants to marry a Thai girl, spends all his vacation time in Thailand/learning Thai/etc - just to get a "nice Thai wife." He's a Connecticut WASP. It somehow rings a little creepy/fetishistic.

@ajadedidealist He is certainly not the only one to has this fetish.. scores of white guys seem to have it as well...

Tons of dudes in Williamsburg all seem to have Asian girlfriends as well. We have jokingly considered it a hipster requirement: skinny jeans, indifference, asian girlfriend, copy of Franny and Zooey . . . .

Maybe there are just a lot of Asian hipster girls?

@ajadedidealist I used to have a boss - who owned a fancy Chinese place in the East Village - who was obsessed with Chinese women, and all things Chinese really. To the point of creepiness. And he was a rich white daddy's boy, too....

@everyone I am totally grossed out by this.. last night I was at a fancy restaurant in Phuket in Thailand and at the next table were three middle aged European men who were dining with these young Thai women who were all giggly and squeely and all over these dudes.. yuck!!! actually no matter how old these guys seem to be , they manage to attract young Asian women!! Have seen tons of such 'couples' around..

Ugh. I hate when I see couples with vast age differences between them, no matter which sex is the elder of the two. It creeps me out in general. How much can you really connect with someone who is vastly older than you or significantly more immature? It seems like it just about is always the case that people are in those situations for the wrong reasons, and the most obvious ones.

@uptowngirl That is...lame. My dad gets really angry when he sees stuff like that - he calls it "child molesting." A bit sarcastically, but not too far off the mark really. Something is off with a guy who is attracted to a really young girl, and vice versa.

@BroadwayBK I really agree with you on that, BroadwayBK. I know a guy who never seems to date girls past 20, and it hasn't changed even as he has grown older. It's almost like he can't be with a woman who he could actually have a meaningful conversation with. How sad is that?

@BroadwayBK and DBlack I too am repulsed by it.. what is it with these men?? are they somehow trying to cling on to their fast fading youth by going out with much younger girls? and these women too do they just want a sugar daddy and nothing more ? I was in a foul mood for most of my holiday and I do really think that these mis-matched couples swirling around me had a lot to do with it ..

@DBlack Yeah, there is no way you can really be intimate with someone who is in no way on your level or in the same place in life...

@uptowngirl I think there is just a lot of shallowness involved.... I mean MAYBE some relationships with gaping age gaps are stable ones, but I haven't seen it.

True. I may joke about being attracted to suave, debonair older men, but surely people in January-December relationships must realize how ridiculous they look - the men look naive and foolish and the women, predatory.

Hah! I saw some model chick in SoHo the other day being literally led by the hand by her very successful looking older man companion. She looked totally laughable, like a lost little girl who's used to being led from one place to another and not having to think a single thought in her pretty little head. Meanwhile the guy? I would have so gone for the guy. He wasn't all that bad looking, about 40, and looked totally confident, well dressed, knew who he was. I just do not, not at all, understand why having that kind of arm candy is important to a man like him. Dude, find a woman you can actually talk to, hunh? That poor girl with him looked so pathetic, all she had going for her was that she was a model. Which in my opinion is not all that much.

@Uraniumfish unfortunately all the men that I saw in Thailand were wrinkly, pot bellied, old geezers who were cavorting with these young women ...yuck

Indeed, @uraniumfish - I wish those suave 40 somethings would try to take me out to dinner, model or not! I can see the attractiveness of debonair gentlemen of a certain age far more than I can see the appeal of vapid model-types. I'd rather date a 40 year old educated man who was intelligent, well-spoken, etc., than a 19 year old Abercrombie (male) model, on the average (now if Abercrombie model happened also to be a novel-writing philosophy major with a passion for Italian cooking...)

Yeah, given a choice between looks and personality/smarts I've often picked the personality men. But I'm (sadly) trying to accept that a lot of men choose the opposite way.

I agree that it can be really creepy. But, my dad always says a man isn't a man until he's 40. So, I guess if you actually want to date someone who has his crap together, it's most likely gonna be of the older variety. But, I don't get what a man sees in an 18 year old gazelle who can barely say "gazelle" but can definitely say "Prada."

LOL! Great way to put it, JenMac.

So what do you guys think of relationships that go in the opposite extreme: older women, younger men?

@DBlack somehow that doesn't seem that offensive maybe because they are not that common..c'mon perhaps the most well known 'cougar' is the British actress Joan Collins other than her can't really think of many others can you?

I tried going out a few times with a guy who's only 3 years younger than me and I wanted to slit my throat. I don't frown upon the older woman / younger man scenario, I just don't think there are that many young men who don't act like 12 year old boys. And, I can't date someone with the maturity level of a frat dick.

@JenMac So that's when men stop acting like big babies? At 40?

@DBlack That's just as weird to me. I don't really like dating guys a few years younger than me - the maturity gap has always been too disheartening. I always think that Demi must have the intellect of a five-year-old to be married to Ashton Kutcher.

@JenMac, NeverSleeps Maybe the maturity gap gets to be less of a problem as you age and realize we're all just big babies, but wouldn't mind having some good looking, in-shape man in your bed...I'm not there yet myself, but I'm just sayin...

@Urainumfish Well put! Although I must say that the last few jerks I dated were one and two years younger than me, respectively. I do think that the connection you can make with a much-younger guy is sort of limited, though. I don't think I will be 45 and dating a 25-year-old.

@BroadwayBK That might be true for the same reasons that a 45 year old guy can't be rightly said to really make a connection with a 25 year old girl. But it's amazing how many more times the older guy-younger girl pair happens as opposed to the older woman-younger man.

@DBlack very true...just look at the Donald Trumps, Rupert Murdochs of the world..apparently having a trophy wife makes them look and feel better..

@Everybody: When my girlfriend and I go to amusement parks, she always remarks how we act like big babies, or have a little one trapped in our big bodies. Do you know what I mean? I considered her thoughts amusing.

@DBlack Agreed. Age gaps keep people apart on some level.

I think society promotes having a younger woman on your manly arm as a status symbol, and a woman having a younger guy on her arm just isn't promoted in the same way.

@BroadwayBK: Is that true? I mean promoting older women with younger guys. It seems to be happening a lot more than we are aware of.

Take a look at this website:

http://www.angelfire.com/stars4/lists/couples-age-differences2.html

Also I think that women are socialized to value traits in mates (success, elegance, maturity, intelligence, worldliness) that are less present in younger men, while men are socialized to value traits in THEIR mates (beauty, fertility, enthusiasm, zest for life) that are more commonly associated with younger women. So it's not JUST a status thing, I think,m

@Ajadedidealist; Are you sure? I find your comments to be rather unique and fascinating. Can you embellish a bit more on your ideas. I would love to read them.

@ajadedideailist youre spot on with your analysis..

Sure, @hhusted. I just mean that as we (women) grow up, we are taught both implictly and explicitly by the media that "good" traits in a husband or partner are intelligence, maturity, and an ability to "provide for" us - protect us, financially support us, etc. (I bet a boy's mother rarely wonders how his potential girlfriend will "provide for the family!") Financial stability, emotional maturity, and general "settled-ness" are all qualities of older men, by and large, rather than young college kids or what have you.

Likewise, men are taught in the same way that an ideal girlfriend is "hot" - of course - but also willing to be in some sense "led"/someone who looks up to them/someone they can take care of. These are all qualities associated with youth - being new and inexperienced. Thus do women of all ages seek out oftentimes a partner that conforms to these societal expectations - as do men - and you end up with far more May-December pairings than December-May.

@ajadeidealist And then we all end up looking for love in all the wrong places...

@ajadedidealist @Uraniumfish Agreed. If only we could all get over ourselves...

Seriously, I'd love to have me a wife-man, who's all masculine but doesn't need to play the manly-man thing and be a hotshot out in the world. It's attractive in a guy, sure, but I don't really mind being the successful one and having someone to watch the babies.

@Uraniumfish I am in the market for just a nice, dorky guy that doesn't feel the need to prove something all the time. However, must be sort of ambitious. There's a fine line, I suppose. What happened with the date of your dreams, if you don't mind my asking?

It's hard to find a good man in this city; if you can find one here, you can find one anywhere...

@NeverSleeps Shouldn't it be: "If you CAN'T find one here you can't find one anywhere."?

@DBlack Wouldn't that imply that it's easy to find a guy in this city...? It isn't.

I wouldn't look for one anywhere else! Give me a city boy over a suburbs/outskirts boy any day!

@Uraniumfish: Why only city guys? Is it because you have that rugged edge and want a city guy who is also rugged? Or maybe tough is a better word for it? I'm not sure. what do city guys have that suburb guys don't have? Just wondering.

Da cutting edge. City boys have street smarts. In general, people who are fresh to the city are a little soft around the edges. But after being here awhile people get themselves together: they dress well, they figure out what they want, and then they really go for it, whatever that may be. Maybe city boys just have a passion, and that's pretty attractive.

@Uraniumfish: And you think suburban man don't do that. I know many men, especially clients, who live in the suburbs and have it all together. They are smart, dress well, and know what they want. Maybe you have been living in NYC for so long that you favor NYC guys. If that is your choice, more power to you. Just don't put down suburban men, because I happen to know a few of them who can run rings around city men. I happen to be one of them. My girlfriend told me I have two sides to me. One side is friendly, sweet, kind, and generous. The other side is mean as hell. You get in my way, or mistreat me, and I take you down a few notches, and won't look back.

Are you threatening me?

I think that the stereotype that city boys grow sharper in time has to come from somewhere. It's impossible to make it in this city without your wits about you, certainly.

hhusted: But, you live in a city . . . . ipso facto: you're kinda proving uraniumfish's point, no?

@NeverSleeps Totally agree with you.. being a resident of a big city definitely affects the way you dress, live and carry yourself and even more so when its NYC there is no question about that.

@Everybody Well that clearly means that those of us who grew up here dress best and have the sharpest street smarts of all... heh heh I don't argue with that point of view at all.